Backdoor talks with China, treason?

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Backdoor talks with China, treason?

Post by Naib »

Sky News: Donald Trump: Secret action taken to prevent 'screaming' president using nuclear weapons, new book claims.
https://news.sky.com/story/donald-trump ... s-12408346


It really does not matter what you think of Trump, agreeing to provide such information to another country is treason.
The fact that some people got worked up about what Trump might do is funny... To think someone would spontaneously launch an attack was always fanciful, likewise there are processed in place within the gov'n to restrict such spontaneous actions... To have such cognitive dissonance that someone would agree with a possible enemy to provide them of information of a premeptive strike is criminal

If true... The reasoning was mental decline so what do they think of Biden
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Re: Backdoor talks with China, treason?

Post by notageek »

Nobody wants a war but a military general shouldn't behave like a diplomat.
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Re: Backdoor talks with China, treason?

Post by dont_think_twice »

notageek wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:00 pm Nobody wants a war but a military general shouldn't behave like a diplomat.
Gentlemen, you can't commit diplomacy in here, this is the war room!
https://youtu.be/UAeqVGP-GPM
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Re: Backdoor talks with China, treason?

Post by dont_think_twice »

Naib wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:09 am Sky News: Donald Trump: Secret action taken to prevent 'screaming' president using nuclear weapons, new book claims.
https://news.sky.com/story/donald-trump ... s-12408346

It really does not matter what you think of Trump, agreeing to provide such information to another country is treason.
I think this is the part you are referring to:
"General Li, I want to assure you that the American government is stable and everything is going to be okay," Gen Milley told him in the first call on 30 October 2020, according to the book. "We are not going to attack or conduct any kinetic operations against you."

"If we're going to attack, I'm going to call you ahead of time. It's not going to be a surprise," Gen Milley reportedly said.
I have a hard time seeing that as treason - it looks more like a promise to commit treason under certain circumstances in the future.

Even that isn't really clear though - is he saying that he promises to betray the US by leaking military plans to China? I don't think that is what he was trying to convey - he was saying that he will not agree to an unjustified action against China.

And say those circumstances did come to pass - a president at the end of his term decides to launches a pre-emptive strike on China without justification - if Miley stops the strike from occurring, he probably goes down in history as a patriot, not a traitor.

I don't know - maybe it is my Trump Derangement Syndrome speaking, but it is hard to get upset at a guy for promising not to do nutso stuff. Especially since we know that there was no good reason to do the nutso stuff at that time.
The fact that some people got worked up about what Trump might do is funny...
Yea, friggin hilarious.

It is worth comparing this case with other famous examples of back-channel US diplomacy. The most famous case is the Reagan administration negotiating with Iran while Carter was president. This case did directly undermine US policy and the sitting US president. Yet it was never considered Treason.

Another recent case is Flynn communicating with his Russian counterpart while Obama was president. Most people seem to think that the communication wasn't a problem - Flynn was prosecuted for lying to the FBI about what was said on the call, and that prosecution was eventually dropped.
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Re: Backdoor talks with China, treason?

Post by dont_think_twice »

Good article:
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/g ... ith-china/

While it makes the case that what Miley did was absolutely wrong, it also agrees with my analysis regarding treason:
Now, what General Milley did in this instance is not, in the proper sense of the word, treason, given that China is not an open enemy in war. [UPDATE: On further reflection, however, it could be construed as an offer to commit treason, given that the promise to give notice of a future attack presupposes action at odds with a direct, armed conflict ordered by the commander in chief.]
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Re: Backdoor talks with China, treason?

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Looks like another broken phone 'report' someone told me, that some one told him, that some unknown 'experts' or intelligence agency has discovered unbelievable anti-american plot, a treason, a 'smoking gun', a bomb shell, someone should pay for it. And of course point fingers at political opponents. There are sort of duopoly of power in the US rn, could even be a setup to get rid of the General, I think army is on the Trump's side certainly more so than the Intelligence.
Why would he even say something like that, "hey we won't nuke you" for our internal issues, it doesn't make any sense. or "I'm the boss, I got the button, don't worry", it's just stupid, and childish, something a propaganda machine could come up with.
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Re: Backdoor talks with China, treason?

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"General Li, I want to assure you that the American government is stable and everything is going to be okay," Gen Milley told him in the first call on 30 October 2020, according to the book. "We are not going to attack or conduct any kinetic operations against you."

"If we're going to attack, I'm going to call you ahead of time. It's not going to be a surprise," Gen Milley reportedly said.
Telling someone you would warn them of an attack, and actually warning them are two very different things, especially in the context of geriatric and unhinged members of congress probing the Pentagon about the legality of conducting a military coup d'état.
Add to that that any primary targets are going to be military installations, there are probably grey back channels to warn of impending attack to allow the evacuation of non-combatants and cut down on human casualties during a first strike scenario, mission integrity withstanding of course.
Remember: Hearts & minds, at the start this means optics.
Milley did nothing wrong.
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Re: Backdoor talks with China, treason?

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dont_think_twice wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:50 pm
And say those circumstances did come to pass - a president at the end of his term decides to launches a pre-emptive strike on China without justification - if Miley stops the strike from occurring, he probably goes down in history as a patriot, not a traitor.

I don't know - maybe it is my Trump Derangement Syndrome speaking, but it is hard to get upset at a guy for promising not to do nutso stuff. Especially since we know that there was no good reason to do the nutso stuff at that time.
The thought that an attack would happen is bat shit crazy, so don't even try to spin what he said as being noble. And if it did happen, warning the enemy of an impending attack would put the lives of everyone under his command at risk. So even if this isn't treason, at the very least, he should be relieved of duty and possibly court marshalled.
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Re: Backdoor talks with China, treason?

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It was not treason, we are not at war with China, but it was unconstitutional and against all civilian and military rules and regulations. Milley should be court marshalled and lose all military benefits and retirement pay. The civilian government makes foreign policy and tells the military when it is needed. The military is to serve the elected civilian government, and there is NO excuse for Milley's actions. He should have been fired for his incompetence with the whole Afghan withdrawal. This just seals the deal. This whole situation makes me sick, and shows that the liberal left in this country are no better than some Latin American dictatorship! They tried coup attempt after coup attempt under Trump. The left in this country have become anti constitutional extremists.
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Re: Backdoor talks with China, treason?

Post by dont_think_twice »

Menelmacar wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:44 am It was not treason, we are not at war with China, but it was unconstitutional and against all civilian and military rules and regulations. Milley should be court marshalled and lose all military benefits and retirement pay. The civilian government makes foreign policy and tells the military when it is needed. The military is to serve the elected civilian government, and there is NO excuse for Milley's actions. He should have been fired for his incompetence with the whole Afghan withdrawal. This just seals the deal. This whole situation makes me sick, and shows that the liberal left in this country are no better than some Latin American dictatorship! They tried coup attempt after coup attempt under Trump. The left in this country have become anti constitutional extremists.
Mark Miley is part of “the liberal left”? Maybe Trump should have not appointed him Chair if the Joint Chiefs of Staff then?
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Re: Backdoor talks with China, treason?

Post by dont_think_twice »

Spent wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:35 pmThe thought that an attack would happen is bat shit crazy, so don't even try to spin what he said as being noble.
He said that an attack wasn't going to happen. Seems like what he should say if the thought that an attack would happen is bat shit crazy.
And if it did happen, warning the enemy of an impending attack would put the lives of everyone under his command at risk.
Just to let you know, I've been informed by a reliable source that the idea that an attack would happen is bat shit crazy.
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Re: Backdoor talks with China, treason?

Post by dont_think_twice »

Most likely the real scandal is Woodwards sloppy reporting.
https://www.npr.org/2021/09/15/10374547 ... bout-trump
Milley confirms that he spoke to Li and other world military leaders in October and in January. But Joint Staff spokesperson Col. Dave Butler said those communications were part of his normal duties and responsibilities "conveying reassurance in order to maintain strategic stability."

Butler also said Milley did not break protocol in the way he got in touch with Li.

"All calls from the Chairman to his counterparts, including those reported, are staffed, coordinated and communicated with the Department of Defense" as well as the U.S. security and intelligence community's interagency pipeline, Butler said.
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Re: Backdoor talks with China, treason?

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dont_think_twice wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:11 am
Menelmacar wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:44 am It was not treason, we are not at war with China, but it was unconstitutional and against all civilian and military rules and regulations. Milley should be court marshalled and lose all military benefits and retirement pay. The civilian government makes foreign policy and tells the military when it is needed. The military is to serve the elected civilian government, and there is NO excuse for Milley's actions. He should have been fired for his incompetence with the whole Afghan withdrawal. This just seals the deal. This whole situation makes me sick, and shows that the liberal left in this country are no better than some Latin American dictatorship! They tried coup attempt after coup attempt under Trump. The left in this country have become anti constitutional extremists.
Mark Miley is part of “the liberal left”? Maybe Trump should have not appointed him Chair if the Joint Chiefs of Staff then?
Trump said it was a mistake. And yes, if you have heard Milley's remarks it is obvious he swallowed the woke pill. Just the fact that Milley thought Trump was going to attack China in January 2021 is so ludicrous as to disqualify him from any position of power.
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Re: Backdoor talks with China, treason?

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Menelmacar wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:29 am
dont_think_twice wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:11 am Mark Miley is part of “the liberal left”? Maybe Trump should have not appointed him Chair if the Joint Chiefs of Staff then?
Trump said it was a mistake. And yes, if you have heard Milley's remarks it is obvious he swallowed the woke pill. Just the fact that Milley thought Trump was going to attack China in January 2021 is so ludicrous as to disqualify him from any position of power.
It is obvious to you, a casual observer, that Miley is part of the liberal left. Yet Trump appointed him in charge of the entire US military system? No offense, but this Trump dude sounds like an idiot.
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Re: Backdoor talks with China, treason?

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dont_think_twice wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:52 am
Menelmacar wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:29 am
dont_think_twice wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:11 am Mark Miley is part of “the liberal left”? Maybe Trump should have not appointed him Chair if the Joint Chiefs of Staff then?
Trump said it was a mistake. And yes, if you have heard Milley's remarks it is obvious he swallowed the woke pill. Just the fact that Milley thought Trump was going to attack China in January 2021 is so ludicrous as to disqualify him from any position of power.
It is obvious to you, a casual observer, that Miley is part of the liberal left. Yet Trump appointed him in charge of the entire US military system? No offense, but this Trump dude sounds like an idiot.
Yeah, nobody has ever made a hiring mistake before Trump.
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Re: Backdoor talks with China, treason?

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dont_think_twice wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:11 am
Menelmacar wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:44 am It was not treason, we are not at war with China, but it was unconstitutional and against all civilian and military rules and regulations. Milley should be court marshalled and lose all military benefits and retirement pay. The civilian government makes foreign policy and tells the military when it is needed. The military is to serve the elected civilian government, and there is NO excuse for Milley's actions. He should have been fired for his incompetence with the whole Afghan withdrawal. This just seals the deal. This whole situation makes me sick, and shows that the liberal left in this country are no better than some Latin American dictatorship! They tried coup attempt after coup attempt under Trump. The left in this country have become anti constitutional extremists.
Mark Miley is part of “the liberal left”? Maybe Trump should have not appointed him Chair if the Joint Chiefs of Staff then?
Is that the only thing you got from my post? That Milley is woke?
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Re: Backdoor talks with China, treason?

Post by dont_think_twice »

Menelmacar wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:16 am
dont_think_twice wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:11 am
Menelmacar wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:44 am It was not treason, we are not at war with China, but it was unconstitutional and against all civilian and military rules and regulations. Milley should be court marshalled and lose all military benefits and retirement pay. The civilian government makes foreign policy and tells the military when it is needed. The military is to serve the elected civilian government, and there is NO excuse for Milley's actions. He should have been fired for his incompetence with the whole Afghan withdrawal. This just seals the deal. This whole situation makes me sick, and shows that the liberal left in this country are no better than some Latin American dictatorship! They tried coup attempt after coup attempt under Trump. The left in this country have become anti constitutional extremists.
Mark Miley is part of “the liberal left”? Maybe Trump should have not appointed him Chair if the Joint Chiefs of Staff then?
Is that the only thing you got from my post? That Milley is woke?
Fair point. It is poor of me to only respond to the most outrageous parts of a post.
Menelmacar wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:44 am It was not treason, we are not at war with China, but it was unconstitutional and against all civilian and military rules and regulations. Milley should be court marshalled and lose all military benefits and retirement pay. The civilian government makes foreign policy and tells the military when it is needed. The military is to serve the elected civilian government, and there is NO excuse for Milley's actions.
It is not clear if this is correct. The NPR article I recently posted claims that he was acting per protocol with the state department. If so, then he most likely did nothing wrong.
Menelmacar wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:44 am He should have been fired for his incompetence with the whole Afghan withdrawal.
Yep, agreed.
Menelmacar wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:44 am This whole situation makes me sick, and shows that the liberal left in this country are no better than some Latin American dictatorship! They tried coup attempt after coup attempt under Trump.
First, as I mentioned above, it isn't clear why you are referring to Miley as part of the "liberal left".
Second, your claim that the "liberal left" has attempted multiple coups under Trump doesn't make sense to me. Can you define what a coup is, and provide examples of actions carried out by the "liberal left" that meet that definition?
Menelmacar wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:44 am The left in this country have become anti constitutional extremists.
Sigh.
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Re: Backdoor talks with China, treason?

Post by Menelmacar »

The left is anti constitutional.

They believe in free speech, BUT hate speech should not be allowed!

They do not believe in free assembly. The extremist left wing governor of Oregon went so far as to tell Oregonians they were not allowed to have more than six people in their own home to celebrate the holidays.

We have talk from the mainstream left of packing the Supreme Court and ending the Senate filibuster.

And then there is the second amendment!
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Re: Backdoor talks with China, treason?

Post by mrbassie »

Menelmacar wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:36 pm packing the Supreme Court.
And then there is the second amendment!
Those are the important ones when it comes to aboloshing the constitution.

Everything else is just jumping the gun (no pun intended)
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Re: Backdoor talks with China, treason?

Post by dont_think_twice »

mrbassie wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:46 pm
Menelmacar wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:36 pm packing the Supreme Court.
And then there is the second amendment!
Those are the important ones when it comes to aboloshing the constitution.

Everything else is just jumping the gun (no pun intended)
The constitution doesn’t specify the number of Supreme Court justices. There is nothing unconstitutional about adding more justices.

It may still be a bad idea, but that is a separate discussion.
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